Show: Insight Station: KNCO File: 11:9.mp3 Air date: 2026-11-09 Source: OpenAI whisper-1 · shrunk from 98.6 MB to 12.3 MB --- transcript --- Make the most of your future with sound investment planning. Join Seth Leishman and Rick Fisher of Ostrove every Friday morning at 930 for sound investments. Investments are so much more than what the market is up to, and you can learn all about your options, insurance, education, taxes, whatever it takes to create financial stability. Beyond Investments, a great first step and a tool to keep you on track along the way. Beyond Investments with Seth Leishman and Rick Fisher every Friday morning at 930, only on KNCO News Talk 830. Hi, I'm Randy Jackson with KNCO and Star 94.1. I grew up right here in Grass Valley. I raised my family here. This community is home. And I've watched a lot of local businesses grow and become part of what makes Nevada County such a special place. My job is to help local businesses tell their stories through radio. And here's what I've learned. Great radio advertising isn't about running a commercial a few times and hoping the phone rings. It's about consistency, building recognition, and becoming a familiar name people remember and trust. Because when someone finally needs your product or service, you want your business to be the one that comes to mind. If you own or manage a local business, I'd love to hear your story and learn what you'd like to accomplish. No obligation. No pressure. Let's just sit down and talk about your business and see if radio makes sense for you. Call me at 530-272-3424. Let's make your business a name Nevada County remembers. Welcome to KNCO Insight, Nevada County Action, KNCO's local issue talk show. This is your chance to gain insight into issues affecting Nevada County. Be a part of the show. Call with your questions or comments. The number, 477-5626. That's 477-KNCO. The opinions expressed are those of the hosts and callers and do not reflect the opinions of the advertisers, staff, or ownership of Nevada County Broadcasters. Now here is your host, Tom Fitzsimmons. And of course, Tom Fitzsimmons is on hiatus and you can learn more about his situation. Go to our website, knco.com, and listen to his message from a couple of weeks ago. And if you'd like, you can make a donation to his GoFundMe campaign. Mo filling in for Tom on this Monday, which is the Monday in which we bring in Mike Stewart as the host of History Unfolded. Good morning, Mike. Good morning, Mo. How are you? I'm doing well. Yeah. Nothing but the best hopes for Tom. Good wishes. Yeah. And we really miss him. And it seems like every day I miss him even more. I can imagine. And you brought in a couple of very distinguished guests. I noticed one of your guests, the musician, was kind of nodding to the music that was just playing. What is that? Is that The Who? Is that who does that music? That was The Who. The Who. Okay. I thought we were going to do like an Abbott and Costello thing there. We can if you'd like. Yeah. And so that's Brian. Brian Waag, is that correct? Brian Waag. Uh-huh. Your other guest, also very distinguished, is Mr. Chuck Shemeika. Is that correct? That's good. That's very good. Okay. Yeah. Let's see here. If you could say that again. Yeah. There. There we go. No, that's me, not Chuck. So Chuck. This is Chuck right here. There we go. Can you hear me? There we go. Now we can. All right. So we have like four different buttons in here that bring up the microphones. So you have to figure out from one time to the next. After two buttons, I'd be confused. Yeah, because you don't have the history. Oh, here we go. And you host the history show. Well, we've got a couple of great historians here. I wonder if you wouldn't mind introducing your friends and talking about why they're here. Well, I think I'll let them do that themselves. Brian, why don't you go first talking about Okta. I'll do that. So I'm Brian Waag. I live in Nevada City. I'm the chapter president for the Cal-Nevada chapter of the Oregon-California Trails Association. That's a mouthful. And I'm also the vice president of Trails West. Both organizations are very similar in that we research, preserve, and share the history of the immigrant trails coming out of primarily Independence, Missouri. Okay. And you're also a musician in town. I play in a local band called Dreamin' the Dreamer. I am a keyboard player. Okay. And that's why you recognize the Who. That's a fact. Whoever they are. I've got to see that performance someday. You should. And Chuck, how about you? Yeah, I'm Chuck Sameka. I'm with the Nevada County Historical Landmarks Commission. That's a few words, too. And we always seem to get confused with another organization, which is the 501c3, which is the Nevada County Historical Society. We are two different organizations, but we do work together hand-in-hand, as we do with Okta. And all four of these organizations have done wonders in preserving our history. But that doesn't matter, because we all work together and we're accomplishing a common goal. And I think in recent years, we've worked together a lot more than in the past, and we've worked on several projects now together. My organization is appointed by the Board of Supervisors. There's two of us from each supervisory district, and we have ten of us, five districts. And I'm from District 4, which is kind of the western part of Nevada County, which includes North San Juan, South Yuba River, and those areas like that out towards Rough-and-Ready and whatnot. But we focus on history throughout the county. We are not just locked into one location. We've been around since at least 1969, when we were formed. And in recent years, we've expanded quite a bit and we have other programs. We're working with Okta, for example, they're teaching us metal detecting techniques, which is great. And we're trying to learn more about alignments of these historic trails, and Brian will talk more about that, I bet, very soon. Happy to. And then the other things we do is we do have an online publication and we have a hard copy book listing more than 200 of our historic sites, including a map and GPS coordinates. So if you want to go out on a field day sometime, you can check out these historic sites and find out a lot more about your county and its exciting history. We also do the oral history programs, which are archived with the Nevada County Historic Society through the students at Lyman Gilmore Middle School. They do our, their videography class does our oral history interviews. It's a lot of fun working with the young people from Lyman Gilmore. What is the, just one brief aside, the notorious fact that has to do with Lyman Gilmore, the fellow who the school was named for? Notorious. Well, not notorious, but infamous, or famous, famous, we haven't hit the right words here yet. I'm not sure what we're getting at here, but what I've heard is that he claims to be in flight before the Wright brothers. And I know a lot of people I've met here that their families go back several generations and swear by that. So that might be what you're talking about. That's what I was asking about, yeah. Such a great name too. It is. It is. He was an interesting man and I heard he was very, I don't know, he dressed differently and he had a long beard and he was a very colorful character. This county's had a lot of colorful characters. A lot of local color. Yeah, we certainly have. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Brian. You were about to say? I wasn't. Oh, okay. Well, you gentlemen are here today basically to talk about history, of course, but also about a specific incident that just recently occurred. So who wants to start that? I can do that. Yeah, why don't you introduce it, Chuck? It started in, I think we're talking about the Mule Spring Historic Site. Yes. Okay. The Mule Spring Historic Site is an interesting thing and as I learned more about it, I got more and more excited about Mule Spring. I had started at one of our commission meetings that one of our commissioners said, it would sure be nice to investigate Mule Spring as a possibility for historic designation. Once we get something designated, the Board of Supervisors looks at our work and our research and that type of thing. If they agree with this, they'll designate it and they did in this case and it is really over the top needed to be designated. In 2022, myself and a couple of commissioners went out to try to find Mule Spring and we got lost, which is very common, I think, without good GPS coordinates to find Mule Spring. It's basically off of Low Hill Ridge, which kind of runs between Highway 20 and Dutch Flat above Bear Valley and then the other side is Steep Hollow, right? Steep Hollow. Yep. We did finally find it and we had to go over a lot of trees that were downed and there was a year-round spring there. But it figures into our history from the very beginning. When our pioneers first came from the east to the west, they traveled near Mule Springs and oftentimes rested there, their animals for grazing and getting some sustenance from the spring. But then it figures primarily as the primary way to get to Sacramento and Sutter's Fort. They went through via the Johnson Ranch. So it was one of the primary routes in those early years. But more than that, it happened to be the jumping off point for the relief parties that were organized in part by James Reed, one of the survivors of the Donner-Reed-Breen tragedy, and many others. Because of that, we went and did quite a bit of research to find out more about those people that were successful in bringing back many of the survivors, not all, but many of them. So that's partly why we're here today. I wanted to let people know that it has been designated and we had a dedication on October 30th, and several people were there and made very interesting statements. We had some guest speakers, one of which was Gage McKinney, and Gage McKinney did a very nice presentation and he talked about his knowledge of Mule Spring and in particular his ancestor, Mr. Glover. Aquila Glover. Aquila Glover. I'm going to let Brian take over from there. Why don't we take our commercial break? Oh, we want to do that. Okay. This would be a good stopping spot, I think. All right, and Brian, who's this? Jimi Hendrix. You got it. All right, we are going to take our break, as Mike Stewart suggested, and we'll come back with more of History Unfolded on KNCO News Talk, 830, 918-59-degrees. Life's most meaningful moments aren't just seen, they're heard. The laughter of family, the voices of friends, the simple joy of feeling connected to the world around you. But when hearing begins to fade, it's not just sound you miss, it's connection. I'm Dr. Kimberly Bonney, audiologist and owner of Gold Country Hearing and Balance. And I'm Dr. Courtney Matheson. We believe better hearing is about more than just sound. It's about staying engaged, being confident, and connected in your everyday life. That's why we take a personalized approach, helping you understand your hearing and supporting your overall hearing wellness. From comprehensive evaluations to solutions tailored to your lifestyle, we're here to help you reconnect with what matters most. Because when you hear better, you live better. Don't miss another moment. Visit goldcountryhearing.com slash radio to learn more and view a special offer for listeners. Gold Country Hearing and Balance, helping you stay connected to what matters most. I'm pediatric allergist, Dr. Carla Davis. If your child has asthma, let's take a breath together and talk about it. Does your child need to use a quick relief inhaler or a breathing treatment more than twice a week to treat asthma? Has your child repeatedly awakened at night due to coughing, wheezing, or shortness of breath? Have you taken your child to the emergency room, urgent care, or hospital for asthma symptoms? Has your child missed school because of asthma? If you said yes to any of these questions, it's time to talk to an allergy and asthma specialist like me who understands how difficult and frustrating it is to see your child struggle with asthma every single day. The good news is there are new ways and new medications to help you and your child take control of asthma and live an active life. If you feel your child's asthma is not under control, go to controlyourasthma.org. 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Prime Cinema presents movies on the big screen, as they were meant to be seen at Del Oro and Sutton Cinemas. Showing through November 12th at your Prime Cinemas at the Del Oro, Godzilla Minus Zero rated R, Everest The Other Side rated PG-13, and You Can See Everything rated R. Now let's check on the Sutton. Drummer Boy rated PG-13, The Cat in the Hat rated PG, and Jimmy rated PG-13. Playing through November 12th at your local theaters. Now you know what's showing. Be sure to enjoy a movie on the big screen at Nevada County's two Prime Cinema theaters, the Sutton and the Del Oro. And KNCO news time, or history time, is 922 and 59 degrees, and welcome back to Insight on this Monday on KNCO News Talk 830. Moe Howard filling in for Tom Fitzsimmons, and every couple of weeks we get to visit with Mike Stewart and History Unfolded. Hey Mike. Hey Moe. Welcome, welcome back to the microphone. And even I know that band. You do? Well, it's a cover band playing a good song. Okay. So, I think it's Orange Floyd. No, I think it's Chartreuse Floyd. Chartreuse Floyd, yeah, that's more colorful sounding. Alright, so we're talking... A lot of it on that one. So we're talking Mule Springs. Is it Mule Spring or Springs? That's a good question. We actually researched that. And when you read about it in some of the Emigrant Diaries, and there was three or four entries about Mule Spring, it was most commonly referred to in the singular. But it was referred to in plural as well. But we tend to gravitate towards, it was most commonly referred to as Spring. And our plaque at the Spring, of course, says Mule Spring on it. I want to mention our commission just about went 50 cups over it. We could not make up our minds, but we settled on Mule Spring. It probably depended upon how many mules were there drinking. And there are other springs nearby, because that whole area by the spring is really wet. So there could be more too, besides just the main spring. Just follow the mules. We're talking with Chuck and Brian, and with Mike. And you were about to get a little bit more into detail about what's going on. Mule Spring is located on what we call the Truckee Trail, portion of the California Trail. And that section trail started up the Humboldt River. So there's an area out in Nevada called the Humboldt Sink, which is where the Humboldt River literally disappeared into the ground. And that's where the main trail continued, basically up through Truckee Canyon, past what today is known as Truckee, and then continued on to Donner Pass. But after one or two immigrant trains went up that river bed, they said, this is impossible. So subsequent pioneers, actually in Verdi, Nevada, turned, went kind of the northwest, went up that hill, down through Hope Valley, and then continued to roughly where Truckee is. That was the first documented wagon train through that area, up and over Donner Pass, was in 1844. It was the Stephens, Towns, and Murphy party. And that section was used up until the Gold Rush, and a little bit after, until the main trail kind of shifted towards Carson Pass to the south. But anyhow, so as the immigrants, and in fact the Donner party themselves, had they not gotten stopped at the base of the Sierras due to snow storms, and this was in right about Halloween 1846, is when the first storm hit and trapped them, they would have continued up and over what's today called Donner Pass, and they would have passed by Mule Spring. So if you continue the trail, it drops through Bear Valley from Emigrant Gap on Highway 80, continues west, goes up Lowell Hill Road, follows it, the ridge, and then they come across Mule Spring. And the first time we saw the mention of the term Mule Spring was in 1847, after the Donner relief parties rescued the survivors. And that started in February of 1847. That was the first relief party led by, we mentioned Aquila Glover. And there were seven of those members that set out to rescue the survivors. The reason why they got to Mule Spring was, again, reversing direction of the trail, but that's where the snow line was. So they brought all these provisions on mule and horseback, but the snow was so deep at that point they had to get rid of the mules and horses or leave them there and then throw on backpacks and hike up the rest of the way over Donner Pass down to the east side of Donner Lake where the survivors had camped out. And what did that group of rescue party, what did that look like? And how did they learn that people were trapped there? Yeah, they learned in, gosh, I think it was just before Christmas 1846, 17 members of the Donner party set out to get help, and they were later called the Forlorn Hope. 17 set out to go up Donner Pass, but two had to turn back because they were able to fashion snowshoes out of wagon parts and oxbows, but didn't have enough for all 17. So 15 continued on, but only seven survived that journey, one of which actually made it out to Johnson's Ranch with the help of some of the local Native Americans. So he told a story, and the word got out that folks were trapped. Also, James Reed, who was a member of the Donner party, he was banned from the Donner party for an altercation he had where he actually killed somebody. So he also was able to get out to Sutter's Fort via Johnson Ranch and get the word out to try and get a rescue party to help get the survivors out, which included his entire family. That is an interesting story. James Reed, what he did prior to the beginning of the rescue party was to actively search out volunteers and try to drum up the money that he knew this would take to rescue his relatives and his wife and his family and his children. So he was motivated, and luckily he made it out ahead of time and he was successful in getting a lot of these things together. What is interesting to note is that he got involved in the Mexican-American War just outside of Santa Clara, and then after that particular small battle, he was able to recruit a few individuals there, and then they finally consolidated them at Sutter's Fort. With the help of the federal government, there was additional money brought forth with a young lieutenant that was in charge of the fort at the time. We're in the middle of the Mexican-American War, and so Sutter was no longer in charge of his own property. The military had taken it over, and they also were part of the lead in the sense of the logistics for helping the relief parties leave Sutter's Fort to Johnson Ranch. Wow, okay. You also mentioned that you were going to talk a little bit about Gage's ancestors, or was there a story that you had about Gage's ancestors, or did I mishear that? One individual that he's definitely related to is the leader of the First Relief Party. Give me a pronunciation again, Brian. He said it's Aquila, A-Q-U-I-L-A, Aquila the Lover. I think Gage is the great-grandson or great-great. He said great-grandson. I think it would be great-great, but I'm going to absolutely have to ask Gage if that's accurate or not. Because that's back five generations or so. That's a long ways back. One thing to remember too with the First Relief, again, James Reed was not on the First Relief Party, but all seven members that first set out from Mule Spring, none of which had any skin in the game with the survivors. They're going to rescue a brother, a sister, a spouse, or family. There was no connection with the Donner Party members, other than Aquila the Lover was an immigrant himself on a prior immigrant train across the U.S., or actually not the U.S., but across the continent. That was the only connection really with the survivors. One thing that came out that I wanted to mention that I was moved by in our dedication was the fact that these individuals did not have connections. They did this out of grit and loyalty and the need for these people to be helped out of those situations. It was pointed out by some of our guest speakers that this was a tremendous sacrifice on their part. Even they had trials and tribulations though. I read someplace that actually as the seven were making their way to try to get to the Donners, they had to make their own snowshoes, just like the Donners did in that first episode where they tried to get out. They had a bit of a mutiny. Two of them said, we're going back. I think the leader allowed them to go back because he couldn't make them fight. He said, if you guys go on, I'll pay you $5 per day. I think that was where the Dan Tucker thing came in. It was, yeah. I recall the story being that some of them were being paid a couple dollars a day, I can't remember the specifics. The two members of the party that they got out through Bear Valley and up there saying, you know what, we're not doing this. It's too difficult. We're going to turn back. I think it was Aquila Glover offered to pay them $5 a day if they would continue on. But they were pretty stubborn and they wouldn't want any part of it. But again, the fascinating fact like Chuck had mentioned too is that other than getting paid a couple dollars a day, there was no connection to the people there. You think about what heroes these folks were, especially Glover. Again, he was a pioneer himself. No doubt he hadn't recovered from that journey across the continent, but he stepped up and said, we need to go help these people get out, whoever's left. Remember, 87 people consist of the Donner Party and only 47 made it out. So that's a big number. Again, he was driven to go help whatever number of survivors were left at the camps. We still have people that do that. Yep, absolutely. They're called the Nevada County Search and Rescue. That's right. Yeah, my alma mater. Yeah, and how did they, we need to take a break here in a second, but how did the Donner Party, what kind of situation were they in? I mean, were they in a cave or how did they survive those that did? Well, there was one cabin that was actually already standing from a prior pioneer group that got caught in the snow, and then they built cabins, I mean, literally in the snow while it was snowing. It's the first storm hit, and it snowed for eight solid days. So they're building these kind of makeshift cabins slash lean-tos right where the Donner Memorial State Park building is, just within, you know, 50, 100 yards. They built several cabins. And then about a couple miles away, we also had another group of the immigrant party that actually took parts of their wagons just for the tent part of it and made lean-tos like you said. The Donners, the Donners themselves. They were seven miles away from the rest of the party. They had a wagon axle break, and George Donner, who was the leader of the party and his brother Jacob, were in the process of repairing the broken axle or actually making a new axle. And Jacob, unfortunately with his hatchet, hit George's arm, causing a big gash, and then it got infected and gangrenous. So basically he was unable to do much of anything. And that's at Alder Creek, which is off of Highway 89. And what's kind of interesting is there's actually a picnic site there, kind of recognizing the Donner party. Poorly worded by the Forest Service. Yeah, exactly. But it's seven miles to the north-northeast of where the rest of the Donner party was trapped at Donner Lake. Seven miles is a long, long distance in 1847. Well, especially with the heavy snow they had. Yeah. And the relief parties had to make it not only to the first group of survivors who were near the lake, then they had to go that seven miles to pick up those survivors there. To see who was still alive. Yeah. And that's it. The Donner did not survive. He passed away there. Yeah, and when the first relief parties got to the Donner campsite, Thames and Donner, George's wife, they said, you know what, George, your husband's too weak to make it out. You need to come with us. She's going, I'm not leaving my husband. I'm going to stay here with him. So she refused to go with the first relief party. Kim would do that for you, right, Mike? Let me think about that. Did the gentleman survive the axe wound? No, none of the Donner men made it out alive. Oh. Yeah. Well, we need to take a break. So you feel like I named that tune? Super Tramp. Yep. You got it. Another local wants a pot. All right. So we will take a break here and head on into the news booth with Chris Gilbert and come back with more History Unfolded here at KNC on News Talk 830, 935, and 60 Degrees. I'm Chris Gilbert with the KNCO Local News Update. Nearly half of all mail-in ballots received in Nevada County by Election Day could not be counted on election night or 45 percent. That was 24,150. But the county's top election official says the 29,155 votes that were tallied were the highest total since he assumed the job. Clerk Recorder Armando Saludambriz cites a couple of factors that included beefing up staff and assigning more specific roles regarding the collection of ballots compared to previous elections. We hire about 15 staff members, and within those 15 staff members, we would ask four to six of them to go and do drop-off pickups, and that was not working. Then we hired on top of that seven more staff just dedicated for ballot retrieval teams. Saludambriz says historically about 50 percent of the mail-in ballots received are on election day, and the state's lengthy and detailed verification process doesn't allow those to be part of the election night count. For this election, he says about 22,000 ballots were received on or just before election day, which is 41 percent of the entire total. Meanwhile, he was surprised to see a voter participation rate of 65 percent when he was expecting around 75 percent based on early voting patterns. And the other western Nevada County measure that appeared on the election night ballot also appears to be passing. Measure M is a $19.5 million bond, which would modernize infrastructure and facilities for the Pleasant Ridge School District. The district superintendent, Greg Batargamy, says they've never passed a bond before, including an unsuccessful effort in 2024. He says this campaign called for basic nuts-and-bolts improvements. We're looking to do new roofs, replace aging air conditioning units, new fire systems, new security systems, like intercom communication systems, primarily on the emergency side more than anything else. There's very few vanity projects. Batargamy says their schools are over 50 years old. He says Measure M would also improve safety. That includes providing a new entrance into the Cottage Hill Magnolia Complex in order to pull more student drop-off and pickup vehicles off the road. The bond would also convert some of the multipurpose rooms into community centers, including during emergencies. Batargamy says the passage of the measure would give the district more access to state-matching funds. Join us for our next local news update, coming up at the bottom of the hour. And for news and weather anytime, you can go to knco.com. I'm Chris Gilbert, KNCO News Talk 830. Hey, Nevada County, why pay full price when you don't have to? With the KNCO Shopping Show, get discounted gift certificates to your favorite local businesses. And now you can shop anytime at knco.com. No waiting for the radio show? Check out our daily deal right on the homepage. Plus, sign up for free emails and get our deal of the week. The KNCO Shopping Show. Shop local, spend less, save big. Hear that? That's the sound of your life. Perfectly imperfect. Beating in rhythm to the world you've created. But every time you drive after drinking, the music gets drowned out. Your life sounds pretty great. Don't let a buzz ruin it. Buzz driving is drunk driving. Don't drive buzzed. A message from Nitzen, the Ad Council. This from the KNCO B&C ACE Home and Garden Center Weather Center. ACE is the place. Here is your forecast on KNCO News Talk 830. Mostly sunny with a high in the upper 60s today. A very light southeasterly wind. It'll be clear and cool overnight, Tarlo 45. Then sunny and not as warm on Tuesday with a high 72. Tuesday night, Tarlo mid to upper 40s and low 70s expected on Veterans Day. For weather anytime, click on the weather center at knco.com. I'm meteorologist Dan Holiday on KNCO News Talk 830. I think we need to find some more obscure bands next time you're on, Brian. So this is... Smoke on the Water. Yep, Deep Purple. And their big hit, you probably know this, but the song was based on an actual incident. I think it was a recording studio that caught on fire. I did not know that. That inspired the song. All right. So, yeah, there's a little history for you, Mike. A little bit more modern than what we're talking about. Yes. Yes. And, you know, we know that Brian's also a musician in town. Chuck, what do you do when you're not, like, delving deep into history? What do I do? I don't have that many activities, really. Mostly I'm just hiking around looking for historic sites and trying to run the family business in Utah. Well, you're a big swimmer, too. Oh, yeah, I like to swim. I've been trying to recruit both these guys to become swimming buddies of mine, but it's been a hard, hard battle. I swam at Memorial Pool for the last 25, 30 years. Oh, okay. Maybe you can all take a dip in Mule Spring. Pretty small and pretty shallow. All right. So we are talking history unfolded. We've got Chuck Shemeika. Is that right? Did I say that right? Most people pronounce it exactly like that, so I'm going to go with that. Okay. That's very good. And Brian Wogg. Good morning. And, of course, Mike Stewart, who is with us every other Monday. Well, second and fourth. Second and fourth, because sometimes there's five Mondays. Every once in a while. So you take a Monday off if that's the case. And we're talking Mule Spring, and I wonder if you can get back into, because this is just really intriguing, the history that you've been talking about. You mentioned the Donner Party and how they, I guess they avoided Mule Spring, or if you could go with that. They never got that far. Yeah. So it's had the Donner Party, you know, back to the base of the Sierras a day or two before. They would have passed by Mule Spring, and we never would have heard of it. There would have never been a Donner-Reed Party that's so, you know, famous in the history of the immigrant trails. So that was a, so Mule Spring may have been a place where they could find some safety at the time? Yeah, grass and water, you know, for their oxen and for themselves. And I've had people often ask, well, how do you get its name, Mule Spring? Because when, you know, one of the primary ways that we are able to find locations of trails or close proximity is reading immigrant diaries. And with Okta, we have access to thousands of diaries. And the first time that we saw the use of the term Mule Spring was in 1847, after the relief parties already rescued the survivors. Prior to that, you read diaries saying, oh, we climbed a steep hill, camped at a spring, fed the oxen, and continued on. But the question still is, who came up with the name Mule Spring? It was a spring, but it was referred to as just a spring up until that point. Was it because the relief parties used, you know, mules from Johnson Ranch to get to that point, and then they abandoned the mules and continued on foot? Some historians, someone out there may know the answer. From what I've read, there's nothing definitive as to who named it and when it got that name. So was that a thing back in those days that people would keep diaries? Almost everybody would keep diaries? Yeah, I wouldn't say almost everybody. There are quite, if you think about how many tens of thousands of people emigrated across the continent and how many diaries we have, you know, it's hard to say what percentage of the immigrants had written diaries. But most are fairly vague as far as, oh, we passed by a cliff and camped here. But some are very, very definitive and detailed on what they saw and where they were. And those are the diaries that really provide us good value and insight into where some of these locations were. Now, my first experience with learning about the Immigrant Trail was in 1981 with Chuck Graydon. And Charles Chuck Graydon was writing his book about the Immigrant Trails. And again, most of his research was from those diaries. And I just can't, there's one I cannot forget, one passage where this young lady wrote in her diary, and Chuck showed this to me, and she said, today we were able to move the wagon nine feet. That's, yeah, must have been quite an achievement there in the snow. Well, I mean, I'm sure there were better days. But just to give the idea of, I mean, in today's mindset, moving our vehicle nine feet in a day compared to how many miles we travel today just to go to work. Yeah, and the typical, actually the average number of days it took an immigrant to get from Missouri to California was about 151 days, roughly. And did you think that they were aware that it would be that long as they set out? Yeah, the early immigrants, you're talking late 1830s, 1840s, probably did not have a good idea. But interestingly enough, when some of these trails opened up, there were people that didn't like California or Oregon. They went back the other way. So they would literally talk to each other. And they asked questions. Hey, how's it getting over here? What's it like going this way? And they get a lot of intel from people going back home that didn't like the West Coast. Yeah, and did you ever see or read the book Centennial, any of you gentlemen? I have not. There's a term in there where they would say they saw the elephant. Oh, I see. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which, do you have information about that phrase, what that means? You know, I've seen that a lot. I think it means more, hey, we're almost there. We're going to make it. We got this big mountain to climb. But we're just about done with our journey. I think it ties into that somehow. I've seen that phrase a lot. Yeah, I read a story one time, a little bit, a predecessor to that, you might say. A farmer in the Midwest always wanted, was enthralled by elephants. And he always wanted to see an elephant. And he was on his way to a circus. And, I don't know, saw that elephant got loose and was causing havoc going down the road. This is maybe an old wives' tale or something. But he said, I finally saw the elephant. And it got picked up by pioneers as a statement about they finally saw something that they wanted to see. In this case, California. Yeah, right. Why don't I mention James Reed again? Absolutely. Okay. James Reed, he's on the second relief party. He's going to be with his family. And he meets his wife someplace halfway between Mule Spring. I say halfway. I'm not sure where. Somewhere in between. I don't know where it was. And he knows this is fantastic. And he's got to go on to rescue the rest of his children and other members of the party. But they have a meeting there. And it was very heartfelt. And so she was going back with Leader Glover at that time. And he had made a promise. He had to take some of the Donner children back to the Mule Camp because they couldn't physically make it. But he promised that he would return. And now he knows James Reed is returning. So he's elated as he returns to Mule Spring with the surviving members that he has with him. So you said James Reed was sent away. He was banned. He was banished. Banished because he killed someone. Do you have any details about that? Yeah. So the gentleman that he got in a fight with was named John Snyder. He was a Teamster, Teamster being someone who drives the wagons, somewhere out in Nevada. And I can't remember the location. I think some folks say it's Iron Point. It's an area where you've got to go up the hill and up to a plateau. Well, the story goes that the Teamsters were going up this hill one at a time because it wasn't wide enough. And there was a lot of dust and dirt and steep. Well, allegedly John Snyder was getting impatient. He said, heck with you guys. I'm going to go around everybody. Well, he tried to do that. And the story continues that the hardware on his wagon got caught up with the hardware on the Reed's wagon. And then they're getting tied together with ropes and chains. And Reed said, hey, back off. We're trying to do this one at a time. Snyder basically said, heck with you. And they got in a fight. So Snyder allegedly had his whip. He took the end of it and hit Reed over the head, cracking his head open. And James Reed's wife tried to intervene and stop it. Well, then she got hit by the head of this whip. So that really infuriated James Reed. So he grabbed his knife out of his sheath, jumped over on John Snyder and stabbed him in the chest. And within just a short amount of time, maybe in half an hour, John Snyder passed away right then and there. Well, there were two factions in the Don and Reed party. One supported James Reed, saying it was self-defense. The other said Reed's a murderer. They wanted to hang him off one of the wagons, off the tongue of the wagon. But out in Nevada, that wasn't part of the U.S., so there was no U.S. judicial process to follow. It was in the middle of sticks. So they agreed to banish him without a horse, without a gun, without anything. So the next morning, he took off on his own. And one of his daughters allegedly caught up to him, gave him his pistol, gave him some food, because she didn't want to see her father heading off into the desert without any kind of provisions or help whatsoever. So that's how he got banished and how he got to Johnson's Ranch and Sutter's Fort well ahead of the rest of the party. Was there a snowstorm at that point, or was that prior to the weather really hitting? Yeah, that was prior to. I can't remember the dates. It was at least a month before the rest of the party got to the base of the Sierras when the first storm hit. I can't remember the actual dates, but it was several weeks at a minimum before that. And here he was with, you said his head was injured by the whip, right? Yeah, his head was injured. His wife patched him up as best she could, thinking about, you know, don't have access to good medical supplies and whatnot out in the middle of the desert. I mean, it did have, you know, bandages and whatnot, but again, you're out in the middle of nowhere. Well, we need to take our final break, and we have a few more minutes remaining, so we'll come back with more of History Unfolded. All right, Brian, let's see if your record continues. Don't Fear the Reaper, Blue Oyster Cult. Yeah, we play this on Halloween on our sister station a lot. All right, so, yeah, we'll head into our break here, and we'll come back with more of History Unfolded here at KNCO News Talk 830. Make that 951. 62 degrees. You are one of a kind. Your smile, your laugh, the way you look at those you love. So when it comes to cancer care, you deserve a treatment approach that's as unique as you. Dignity Health Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital features a comprehensive range of services, from advanced diagnosis and treatment through supportive care and recovery, so you get the plan that best fits your needs. Learn more at DignityHealth.org slash Sierra Nevada Cancer. Dignity Health. Hello, humankindness. Hello, Nevada County. This is Jerry Johnson. Are you sick and tired of everything in California and Nevada County costing a fortune? Well, I've got two ideas for you. One, stop voting for those same idiots who just keep raising taxes and fees. Number two, if you find yourself a little short of cash, just bring your unwanted firearms to the range prior to November 10th, and we'll get you top dollar and the peace of mind knowing your old firearms are being legally transferred to a lawful new owner. Just give us a call at 530-273-4440 or just come by. It's as easy as that. If you're looking to buy a new or classic firearm, take a class, or you need ammunition, make sure you don't miss our big 31st anniversary sale on Saturday, November 14th from 9 to 4 p.m. Everything will be on sale and with all the fun activities that you've come to expect over the years. Whether you're buying or selling, the range is the place to be for your firearms needs. Located at 13235 Grass Valley Avenue. Don't miss your favorite show ever again. Take KNCO wherever you go. You can have us at your fingertips every moment for the latest news, traffic, and weather, and your favorite shows as well. KNCO is part of the iHeartRadio network. Download the iHeartRadio app from your device's app store. Search for KNCO and start listening. Good morning, I'm Paul Haas with a KNCO Local News Update. Once online, go to KNCO at the top of the page and keep listening to KNCO News Talk 830. The roots run deep for me, Margie Carr, owner of Reflection Skin Oasis. My dad and grandmother came to Nevada City on the Narrow Gauge Railroad in the 1930s. In my early adult career as a dental assistant, I fostered a love for helping and caring for people in their individual needs. Such is the emphasis at my skincare salon, Reflection Skin Oasis, where personalized care and real results in high-tech skincare diagnoses, along with 31 years of experience for finding the best treatments and products for your skin. Come in and enjoy the boutique quality that Reflection Skin Oasis is known for, along with skincare design just for your individual needs. Reflection Skin Oasis, 138 Colfax Avenue, Suite No. 2, Grass Valley, CA. Phone 530-274-9053 or text 530-277-9706. Okay, Brian. Boy, I know this song. Is it Edgar Winner? It's the Edgar Winner Group, yes. Okay. Yeah. That's a good pull. And it has to do with our most recent... Well, it wasn't a holiday. Frankenstein. Frankenstein is the title. There we go. Yeah. Interesting title. And this is In Sight, and it's History Unfolded, the second and fourth Mondays of the month. I got it right that time, didn't I? You got it right that time. Yeah, about time. We're just about out of time. Only been two years. Well, Brian, what kind of music does Dreamin' the Dreamers do? So we play classic rock, a little bit of pop, a little bit of country, a little bit of Latin. Our founder, Ray Laughlin, who lives in Nevada City, he has written, gosh, probably 15, 20 songs that we play also, original tunes. Okay. And where are you performing next? Boy, well, we are hosting... I'm going to put a little marketing blurb out here. We are hosting the New Year's Eve party at the Miner's Foundry in the Stone Room. You are? We are doing that. Come on. And you can go to dreamthedreamer.com and buy tickets, and we'd love to see you. We'd love to see you. We had a great show last year, and it's going to be even better this year. I added an S just like I did with Mule Spring, didn't I? Dreamin' the Dreamer. Yeah. Just one. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, we have just a few more minutes left. So if you want to continue talking about the history of the Donner Party and Mule Spring and et cetera. One thing I wanted to mention. We were just talking about it, Brian and I, a diary statement from a reason or Dan Tucker. He was also a member of the First Relief Party and considered a co-leader along with Glover. Not everybody survived the group that they brought back. One of the young men died at 15 years of age. What was his name, Hook, do you think? It was Solomon Hook. Yeah. Solomon Hook actually passed away according to this diary statement of March 3, 1847, and was buried by a tree near Mule Spring. And I didn't know that until recently when I read one of these diary statements, and they're valuable. And he was a stepson of George Donner, right? I think he was either a stepson or he was a servant with George Donner. I can't remember exactly his connection, but he was with the Donner Party himself, the Donner family. Yeah, and so it's another reason to go back and maybe bring our team of search dogs. They look for older human remains. They do, and also Chuck and I were able to work with the Bureau of Land Management, the Mule Spring is in their jurisdiction, to get a permit to do field research, meaning metal detecting, to try to find specifically where the trail ran. And how we do that is, believe it or not, wagons bouncing through the hills and whatnot, they drop a lot of items off the wagons. And we find those items with metal detectors, which tells us where the actual trails ran. So we had our first research trip, what was it, Chuck, three months ago or so out there? Yeah. Found a lot of artifacts, but nothing we could tie to emigrant, because there was a McGuire ranch out there in the 1860s, I believe, so there's a lot of artifacts we found from that era, not so much from the pioneer era. Yeah, there was the ranch, a lot of mining. Yeah, a lot of mining. We also knew that there was a lot of metal from the mining activities. There was a large tram that carried heavy equipment all the way from the mine down towards, all the way down into Bear Valley. Yeah, exactly. Which was amazing. Some of those remnants of those mine apparatus are still there. So there's a lot of things to get confused on when you're metal detecting. I found out working with Okta. And then, so Okta's looking for primary indications of pioneers, be it what, staples from the side of the wagon or oxen hoods. Yeah, a bow staple that keeps the hickory bows on the wagon, they use staples. We find wagon hardware. We find hubs off of wagons, hub boxing, which are the parts that keep the wheel attached, and that's how we, and hand forged nails. And that's how we validate where the trail actually ran is by identifying those artifacts, which we record, and then we rebury them in the ground where we found them. Also, oxen shoes. I got a question for you. How can you tell if an oxen shoe is pioneer or not pioneer, oxen shoe? Yeah, like from logging. It's very difficult. Typically, the oxen used for logging were much bigger animals, broader hooves, wider shoe. The narrow, skinnier ones, we can pretty much tie back to pioneer. Interesting. It's not 100% delineation, which we can do. So those are big shoes to fill, is what you're saying. Big shoes to fill. All right. It's a combination of all of these things. Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. --- end of transcript ---